145. Kellie Stevens, CDBC 

[0:00] Colleen: Colleen, welcome to unleashed at work and home. The show dedicated to helping veterinarians, vet techs, dog trainers, shelter and rescue workers, pet sitters and all the other animal crazy pet professionals manage their stress and find more joy. I'm your host, Colleen Pelar, and I'm thrilled you're here with us today. Make sure you hit the subscribe button on your favorite app so that you won't miss a single episode. This episode is brought to you by our free community, the circle of resilient and thriving pet professionals. If you like the ideas shared here, then you're invited to continue the conversation with other lifelong learners in the community. You can find out more at Colleen pilar.com

[0:48] Colleen: It's the perfect place for you to learn cool stuff, feel good and take action to create the life you love. Come join us.

[0:59] Colleen: Welcome back to unleashed at work, at home. My guest today is Kelly Stevens, and she is the owner of Gonzo Dog Training. Welcome Kelly!

[1:13] Kelly: Hi.

[1:13] Colleen: I have to start with the obvious question, Gonzo tell me—

[1:29] Kelly: I was a big Hunter S Thompson fan, and he coined gonzo journalism. And initially I was gonna, like, call my company, fur babies, or something like that. And then Gonzo dog kind of popped into my head. And I was like, Oh, that actually really works for training, too. It's a lot of Gonzo behavior that happens.

[1:34] Colleen: Yeah, okay, well, that is different. My brain went to the Muppets. There's a Gonzo Muppet, isn't there?

[1:59] Kelly: Yep, a lot of people do if they think it's a muppet. I'm like a little different. And of course, now you know, after Hunter Thompson has passed, we've learned much more information about what a not great person he was. So it's like, but I still like the name Gonzo dog.

Business Origins and Growth [2:02-4:09]

[2:02] Colleen: Gonzo dog, awesome. Okay, and how long have you had Gonzo dog?

[2:15] Kelly: Started in 2014, so 11 years. It's been a while.

[2:18] Colleen: What made you decide to open it?

[2:19] Kelly: So I was a dog walker for a company in New York City for three years, and it turned out that some of the more difficult behavior, you know, behaviorally challenged dogs ended up they all were coming to me like my boss was giving them all to me. And so I was learning a lot about behavior. And I was also kind of learning that, like I had this communication skill with them.

This was, you know, well before I was really learning anything, but it was just kind of one of those things that was, like, showing up for me and and I got really, really interested. I also had my own dog who was very behaviorally challenged, and so I was in the process of learning, and then working with so many other dogs, and it really became like a passion of mine to sort of figure out what was going on and see you know how we could change things.

And I started the company thinking that I was just going to be walking dogs and, like, convincing people to train me, or, sorry, convincing people to let me train it is. It's a two way street, you know, I train them. They train me like it is, um, but it turned out that everyone that was calling me was for training. And so, you know, I know a lot more now that I wouldn't have jumped in like that, but yeah, I just jumped in with two feet.

Learning and Growth Mindset [3:46-6:06]

[3:46] Colleen: And because of that, you had a desire to learn, and you learned more, and now you know more, and like all of that is true too, so yeah, kind of cool, like the fact that you were willing to help the people who are reaching for help to the best of your ability, whatever that is at any given time.

[4:09] Kelly: Yeah. So that whole saying, the more I learn, the less I know. Yeah, so true. It's so true, isn't it?

[4:16] Kelly: Like I look back on me in the beginning, I was like, Oh, I know all this stuff. And now I look back now, and I'm like, girl, you didn't know nearly as much as you thought you did. And so I'm, you know, I'm grateful for the learning and to, you know, to be presented with situations that were like, Hey, I don't know what this is. Let me go look it up and see like, you know, just learn more.

[4:47] Colleen: Yeah, I think that. I think there's a moment of discomfort, at least for me, when I realized, like, the more you know, the more you need to know, kind of, the more there is to learn, kind of situation. And then after that, discomfort is an experience of peace.

Yes again, at least for me, of like, oh, there's so much out there, and we can't, none of us can know all of it. And okay, okay, so I get to choose what are the pieces I'm going to reach for. And, you know, for my own personal philosophy, the only, the only flaw is, if we stop reaching, I don't really care what it is people are reaching for, like you're interested in that awesome that does not interest me at all, but you go there, and I'll keep reaching for the things I'm reaching for, but that desire to learn, that desire to grow, that desire to change, I think that's what really matters, at least. That's my theory on that of that learning piece.

[5:41] Kelly: How does it land for you when you kind of— I agree, there was more, like, you're never gonna know everything you'd like to know. There is, there's a sort of peace in the surrender of, like, knowing that you're never gonna know everything. I feel like that perfectionism and like you have to get it right all the time. Like, it's so stifling.

Expertise and Imposter Syndrome [6:07-8:58]

[6:07] Colleen: It's a lot of pressure to try and uphold the appearance that you know, everything there is to know about. It's, I'm not even comfortable with the term expert, because, I mean, like, expert just, I mean, is it like, does it mean you know more than the majority of people on this subject? Or is it do you know everything about this? Because it's Yeah. So I just want to use that word.

[6:33] Kelly: I've struggled with too, and I, I was talking to somebody who has very strong opinions that more of us should use the word expert, from the perspective of there are people who have spent, you know, years and years learning their craft, and they should own their expertise, you know. And I have always struggled with like, but I don't know all of it. And she's like, of course, you don't know all of it. Nobody knows all of it, and it's a tricky thing. And I think that that is something that women trip over even more than men. Societally, yeah, that we're, we're not supposed to present ourselves as, as experts. So yeah, I'm with you there on sort of like, expert. No, not, not sure I'd see myself that way, but to listen to this person argue that more of us should take that spot and and claim it, it hasn't shifted my own stance. I don't call myself an expert yet, but it was interesting to hear.

[7:54] Kelly: There are so many people out there claiming to be experts who buy and also, what's the definition like? So you're exactly, what is the standard, who is, you know, who's, who's making the definition.

But there's so many people claiming to be that then, I mean, what distinguishes you from any old person calling them an expert. Like, I think that's that is, yeah, that is definitely a problem, because there are certainly people who are claiming expertise that we do not feel have expertise.

Communication Challenges [8:39-9:29]

[8:39] Kelly: And then, I mean, like, we see this a lot, and even the dog training industry like you come up with a term or a phrase, and it means one thing, and then it gets co opted by people who change the meaning of that. And it's like, why are we keep looking? Why do we keep looking for new ways to say it, for it then to just be like, lost in the, you know, the game of telephone.

[8:59] Colleen: It's communication. It's tricky. Yeah, it's so it's such a necessary skill to have or learn as a dog trainer or behavior consultant, but like, yeah, it's, it's interesting how, how necessary that skill is for our job, and how difficult it still is between people.

[9:17] Kelly: I mean, it's all, it's all a work in progress, like, but as all of life is, as all life is.

Childhood Dreams and Career Path [9:29-11:58]

[9:29] Colleen: Well, one question I always like to ask people is, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? So 10 year old Kelly, what did she think was going to be her life.

[9:35] Kelly: Oh, let me see. I mean, I definitely went through the phase of, like, I want to be a veterinarian. And then, you know, realizing what that entails.

Oh gosh, this is so embarrassing. But I actually wanted to be like a supermodel or an actress, I want it to be, yeah, those were interesting career path like acting, it was like, Oh, I don't have to be one thing. I can be all of the things and not really be any of them. So and I went, I don't want to say pretty far with that, but I mean, I started out in college in acting.

So, and then I very quickly realized that that was not the place for me. And so, yeah, but, and then writing like, you know, I always wrote, and I, you know, teach. I had one teacher, actually, once she was like, writing is your forte. You have to be a writer. And I was like, but that's so boring. And that's actually why I connected with Hunter S Thompson's work, is because I was like, Oh, you can be a writer and write really crazy things. Like, it's not just a because, yeah. So, yeah. Initially, I think when I moved to New York, it was to follow that dream of, like, pursuing a career in writing, and then just very quickly, kind of turned, you know, took an exit onto animal behavior. I was like, No, this, this is something I really connect with.

[11:04] Colleen: So what were you walking dogs to support yourself while pursuing writing? That was how that happened?

[11:26] Kelly: Yep. And ironically enough, once I started training, I like, I forget how, how I did it. It was like answering an ad or something. But I started writing animal welfare articles for like, bigger sites like the dodo, like freelance writing, but so I did actually get to that sort of writing part of my life and career, but it was through. It was through my work with animals so they bring us what we need.

The Role of Canine Partners [11:58-17:52]

[11:58] Colleen: Yeah. So my my first dog, sea bass, Sebastian. I mean, I always say, like I credit him with everything, you know, my interest in dog behavior and that career and, like, I don't think I ever would have had the guts to move to New York without him, you know. Like, yeah, he really, like, he really brought me everything.

[12:13] Kelly: How did he help you move to New York?

[12:25] Colleen: I it was something I always wanted to do. So 10 year old Kelly, I do remember, like, the first time I really, kind of saw movies and stuff with New York, and I was like that that's where I want to be. So artist was probably also on that list of things that I wanted to do when I grew up.

And, yeah, that's a good question, because, I guess, because I was just going through so many things by myself, and I didn't have that confidence, um, that once, once, I had a partner, essentially, like he was, he was less of a dependent, more of a partner. He was very protective and, like, you know, yeah, it's weird to describe, like, my current dog is a total baby and, like, very dependent, like, very different personalities and relationships. But yeah, I feel like he just kind of gave me that little extra boost that, like, I wasn't going to be totally alone moving to the city that I had never really spent time in. That's also very on brand for me. By the way, I just like to move places I've never been before.

[13:17] Kelly: One of my best friends, she's always like, Kelly, you don't need to move again. You just need a vacation. I'm like, do what you can.

[13:37] Colleen: So, yeah, I think he was, he helped boost my confidence and and feeling like, Hey, I'm not totally alone. I mean, you know, he's a dog, but like he's here. So I have no idea if that makes sense. But the interesting thing because, for me, I think I might have used it as a reason not to move like, what if it would be hard for him? What you know, if I don't know people, what will I do like? So I think it's really cool that having him as a part of your life inspired a move, as opposed to constricted. Because I think 20 year old me would have thought that the variables were even higher, you know, now that I was trying to make decisions for both of us, as opposed to just me, you know, me and my dog. What if he What if he barks? If, you know, what if he's in the apartment and he barks and the neighbors up and I think the the worrier aspect of me, hopefully, the older wiser me could handle more of that, but the younger me would have had a whole lot of thoughts.

[14:31] Kelly: Oh my gosh. Like, I wish I had all of your foresight in my 20s, because I was still very me, centered at that stage in my life, like, I care, you know, obviously cared about my dog and his welfare, but I didn't know all the stuff I know now in terms of, like, how would this affect that and so on. Like, yeah. I mean, I do remember worrying, because, like, he was a very anxious dog, and here I was, like, trying to move him to one of the most just one of the busiest cities and, you know, in the country, in the world, maybe, but yeah, for some reason that wasn't and it all happened very fast too. I mean, I literally, somebody had a place, I had a room open, and it was I could afford it. And within three weeks I was, I was there, like, put in my two weeks at my day job, and just like, I was like, All right, boss, you guys later.

[15:31] Colleen: Wow. Yeah, that's cool. It's so interesting to me to talk to people who have such different experiences, because I've I was so inhibited as a younger person that I that that's just not even on my map to be able to do that. And one of my sons moved to New York two years ago, and he was debating. He wasn't really sure. And there was a piece of me inside that was like, go, go, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to sway his decision either way. And there were a lot of reasons not to go, so I kept trying to have conversations with him, in which I was saying, like, it can't be completely objective, because I'm your mom, and I'm afraid I'm going to, like, skew things one way or the other.

But he did go, and it was the best thing for him, because it allowed him to step into himself and to know that he he could do things. He could do things that were a little bit scary and a little bit uncomfortable. And the me at that age was always looking for the safest possible smallest steps. You know, sounds so interesting, it's like the complete opposite.

[16:31] Kelly: Like I've had to learn through dog training, like to break things down into smaller steps and not just like it all right, I'm gonna have to share it, because it's just so it's so on. On topic, when I was very little, like, I don't think I remember. I remember I was a diaper, so I was probably around two, and my mom's best friend had a swimming pool, an inground swimming pool, and we would go over there. And the way that she tells it, you know, she watches me walk over to the diving board and then get up on the diving board and then go to the end of the diving board and then just jump in. And I sank like a rock. She didn't get in unsafe. But I was like, so even at that age, I was apparently very willing to, like, just jump straight into the deep end and see what happens. So I felt like, yeah, that was probably a part of my personality emerging early.

[17:43] Colleen: Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I like I'd be hovering right behind that kid too. That's a whole other story we want to get into. Pretty sure I'd have been blocking off that diving board and fame, say, half the 80s work.

What Kelly Loves About Her Work [18:02-20:22]

[18:02] Colleen: So what do you like best about your work right now? Like, what is fulfilling about it?

[18:29] Kelly: Oh, that's such a good question, because I'm not working that much right now. I just I moved from the city up to Hudson Valley, and I'm in that, like, relaunch, rebuild kind of phase.

So sorry. What do I like about I mean, I can tell you what I like about the work in general. What I love about it is I love when I first start working with people. And I mean, so I generally work with, like, the tougher behavior cases people are, there's a lot of emotions involved, like, you know, a lot of frustration, a lot of sadness, like, a lot of anxiety when I first meet people. And just like in the act of having a consultation, and by the like, going through things and thinking about like, different, you know, paths that could work or help with their dog's behavior, and seeing that just kind of like that tension ease and kind of that sigh of relief and that the smile comes Like, you know, to where people feel hopeful again, that there might be something that I love, that I love, that so much, just to be able to like, help people find that, because I know what it's like to lose it. It's really, really hard, and it's, it's a spiral.

So yeah, and then, because I love like the really shy, sensitive, like dogs that don't want to be anywhere around me. I also love that moment, if it comes, it doesn't always come where that dog starts to trust me, and then, you know, we can build on that relationship too. That's, I always say, that's like, the greatest high I've ever experienced is just like, you know that feeling of watching behavior change and, you know, bonding with a dog who's really doesn't want to bond with anybody, it's a nice feeling.

Challenges in the Work [20:22-27:26]

[20:22] Colleen: Yeah, yeah. I love that too. When, when they feel safe enough to say, like, oh, you actually might be my friend, like, yes, thank you. Let me try really hard not to re not to over love you, because I've been holding myself back over here because, yeah, respect that you don't love me as much as I love you. But yay.

So what's really hard about your career.

[20:43] Kelly: Oh, all the emotions again, the best part of the worst part, huh?

[20:50] Kelly: It's part of the best and the worst. And I won't say the word it's, it's hard, like, I mean it's, we have to hold space. I say we have to, I mean, there's plenty of people that don't, but I feel that, you know, I have to hold space for that emotion in order for it to to change.

It's I remember I was talking to a therapist once, and it was like I was explaining my job as, like, you're kind of like a therapist for the dog, but then inadvertently become kind of therapist for the people and so, and I'm not qualified for that job, so then it's also like trying to hold boundaries. And you know, sometimes it's the best thing I can think to do is to like, say, Hey, you deserve the same care that your dog does from another, you know, from a qualified professional for humans. And you know, it's taken years and years and years to try to try and craft the the best way to say that without like coming off bad or offend, like blaming or anything like that.

And I still don't have it, but it is, yeah, it's, it's a lot of ups and downs when you when it comes to, like, more severe behavior situations, and you know, it's, it can be hard, like, there's difficult communication that you have to have, so you really have to have those communication skills in place and hope that, you know, the other person is responsive to that and has those communication skills as well.

I mean, just the dog training industry at large is very difficult to deal with because it's a lot of differing opinions and methods and personalities, big personalities and like, yeah, yeah, that's probably my least favorite part to be on. I've met really, really wonderful people in the industry, but, you know, there is also a lot of, like, back to that expert question we were talking about earlier. And a lot of ego. There's so much ego in this field. I mean, in plenty of fields, but like, there's so much ego.

Letting Go of Ego and Control [23:22-27:26]

[23:22] Kelly: And it's like that that's personally something I had to learn to let go of. Was like, even just attaching my ego to the outcome of the situation like that was never going to end well for me. I mean, it might end well sometimes, but like, it just had no place in the work like and once I was able to kind of take that out of the situation and just look at things objectively, I always get that mixed up with subjectively. Just look at things from the larger viewpoint.

It really kind of changed a lot in my practice of like it was just, it was very helpful to be like, Okay, we're not judging these behavior. We're not trying to, like, attach some weird, random backstory to it, like we're just looking at what's happening and and thinking of solutions, different things we can try to see what what can change it, and if it works, awesome. And if it doesn't work, no big deal. We'll try something else. But that ego part of it is, like, it has to work, because if it doesn't work, then that means that I'm wrong. And like, yeah, it just my philosophy is that really doesn't have a place in the industry.

[24:29] Colleen: Is tricky, definitely tricky. But to see that, to see that as information, you know, like, if it works great, that's information. If it doesn't work great, that's information as opposed to if it works, yay. I personally did good. And if it doesn't work, I personally did bad, maybe not, you know. And to tie that back a little bit to the holding space, I think that's a big piece of it, like when we can take our ego out a little bit and to just make space for just seeing another's experience. Like, there are reasons this is happening. What are the reasons that we can influence and what are the ones beyond our control, you know? Like, there are, there are things that we can do to set this family up for success, human and canine and other animals as well. And there are things that, no matter what we as professionals do, we can't fix those pieces. So, yeah, ego isn't typically a helpful addition to the pie. We can just kind of keep it a little bit more like, okay, objective, but easier said than done.

[26:06] Kelly: I know you said that so beautifully. Like, first of all, information. I love that. Like that, it's just information. It's information, it's it's not attached to, you know, anything. But I love what you said about when we take some of our ego out of it, we're making more space for the people you know, for holding space for those emotions and stuff. That's a really beautiful way to put that.

I like it. Thank you. Yeah, and that's, that's the other thing too with ego, is like, if, if some of those emotions are being directed at us, sometimes they it happens. Then we, we know that this is not necessarily because of us personally, but it's just, it's, it's a big feeling situation, and then, yeah, also what you're saying about, like, control, like, I'm, I'm a, what's that word, recovering, control freak, And this, this is how I started to overcome that was like, I can't, we can't we can give information. We can guide in directions, like we can't actually make anyone do anything. So, like, that's another place that ego gets in the way. Because if you're telling someone to do something, and then they'll do it, then you're like, What did I do wrong? This is a failure. This is their fonts. Yeah, it just gets really messy.

And yeah, the sooner. I mean, it's this, this whole concept that, like, we can control animals and their behavior, and it's like, gotta let that go really quickly, because, like, you're not, you can do things and change things, but you can't actually control an animal. And so I see people who understand that, but then they don't understand that they can't control the people either, and vice versa. Like they think they can't control the people, but they can control the dog. It's like, control, yeah, I hate that word, and yet we have such a desire for it.

Communication and Miscommunication [27:26-34:59]

[27:47] Colleen: Like, I'll control all the variables I can to, you know, increase the odds that this will all go well and and then that's not to say that. I don't think we should all be trying to make things go well, but to have this idea of, like, what does control look like to you, and what are the things you're telling yourself about your need for it, and about your responsibility for it and and how all of that plays out. And even just the communication piece of you said earlier, I wrote it down, let me get your words right. You deserve the same care your dog does. And then you said, I haven't found the perfect way to say that. And the reason you haven't found the perfect way to say that is because it's different for each person, and it's even different for that same person on different days or different moments or 10 minutes apart. And I think we're often looking for the perfect way to say something so that everyone everywhere will understand it, and that doesn't exist, and then that ties back into our control piece of like, if we can let go a little bit of that, and to say, like, I'm going to communicate to the best of my ability and dance in the moment. You know, like we are forever in all relationships, going to be having moments of miscommunication.

[29:01] Colleen: I have a story completely unrelated to dogs, but it feels relevant. So my grandchildren spent the night recently and and it was two consecutive nights. And my youngest grandson, he's nine months old, so that means he sometimes wakes up in the middle of the night. So my husband and I are like, Okay, I'll do the first night. You do the second night. If he wakes up in the middle of the night Tag, you're it. Okay. So first night he sleeps through, yay. Second night he sleeps through, yay. But it was my husband's night. I always wake up earlier, so I woke up earlier. Baby's still asleep. I take the dog out, I come back in, and I can hear that Oliver is awake. I can hear my husband is awake. It's getting up. He's getting ready to go to the shower. So technically, like, it's his job. He's going to get the baby, but it's morning, so we're no longer on the 3am who's getting him. It's it's morning, I go in and get him.

And, you know, so my dog has been fed. He's been out. I'm taking care of the baby. I'm feeding the baby, and my husband comes out, and he's like, a little bit like, bristly. He's like, I. Gonna get him. I mean, he wasn't fussing. He was just awake. He wasn't fussing. And like, well, I know I just got him because, like, he was awake, so I got him, and I was feeding, I was helping. He was like, but he wasn't fussing. And I'm like, yeah. And then Jack says, Well, now I feel like, guilty. Like, you feel guilty. He's like, Yeah, I feel sort of sad and guilty, like, like, like, you're doing my job. And I'm like, I'm trying to help, and we're having this miscommunication where we're both feeling a little bit briskly because I'm like, I was just helping, and he was worried that I was thinking like he wasn't going to get him, you know, but it was just a total miscommunication. But when he said he was feeling sad and guilty, I was boggled. I'm like, for what, like, what in this experience could make someone feel either sad or guilt? You should have been in there doing, like, a happy dance, like, woo. I get to take a longer shower now because, because I don't have to race out there. But we were in totally different emotional states in the same situation, and we both actually had really good intentions, but our communication was not not ideal at first, because when he was like, well, he he wasn't crying. Like, yeah, I know.

I also don't think he needs to cry in order to have someone come for him like it was clear he was awake. Yeah. So, so my husband and I have been married since 1987 so somebody else can do the math on that a long time. You would think that we would be able to have a conversation in which we would both just be able to read each other's mind. No, not ever. All day long, every day, we're in totally different emotional states and a little bit surprised that the other one is having a thought that doesn't line up. So the communication pieces for anyone working with pets are, I mean, that's an insurmountable challenge. There is no right way to communicate to your clients as a clump, you know, like I will say this, and all people will understand how to teach sit, why a separation anxiety dog is barking its head off, why a dog is barking its head off at other dogs that are clearly not gonna hurt him, or a flag. It's a flag. Why does he bark? There's no one right way to say this, because we don't know what they know, and we also don't know what emotional state they're in, what's going on in the back of their mind.

[32:32] Kelly: Yeah, I say I realized that, like we're also on the communication piece, we're speaking two different languages because we're communicating with dog communicating with people, we're trying to kind of build a bridge between those two things. So then we're also teaching the, you know, the people, how to speak the dog language. It's just Yeah. It's a lot.

[33:01] Colleen: Yeah. And there's the additional piece of like we're using language to translate an experience. So you have an experience, and then you make meaning out of it. So you feel warm, and then your brain goes, this is good, or this is bad, or whatever. And then you put language to it and communicate. Like I was really enjoying the sunshine, it was so beautiful day. And then I hear I was really enjoying the sunshine, it was so beautiful day. And then I translate to what would that mean to me? And then what would that feel like for me?

And I might think like something entirely different than what you experience. And so we're always going through this like three level translation in both directions, and that's with the same species in the same language. And then now there we are trying to do that three level communication, to try to explain to someone how to interpret to the best of our knowledge, because we're not 100% sure we're right on all of this, what this entirely different species is experiencing and what is important for this member of the human species to understand about the loved member of this other species. It's super complicated.

[34:22] Kelly: Very complicated. It doesn't sound it on the surface like I do dog training. That sounds simple, well, straightforward. That sounds straightforward does not sound simple. It sounds straightforward, but it is not. There's, there's, like, a whole other component to that where, like, you know, the perceptions of dogs and their behavior that, like, were brought up to believe. And then, yeah, so it's, there's a lot, a lot of layers to it.

Meaningful Words: Res Ipsa Loquitur [34:59-39:31]

[35:00] Colleen: Yeah, there's so many layers. Yeah, yep, we're getting kind of philosophical here, which actually leads me really well into the words I asked you to share. So I ask every guest to share some words, and I believe you are the first guest to share something in Latin. Would you please share these meaningful words of us and then tell us what they mean to you.

[35:11] Kelly: Okay, I'm gonna try not to botch it, but it's recipesa Lopez, and it means the thing speaks for itself. It's the translation. It is what it is, essentially, I it still ties back to Hunter S Thompson. It was like a phrase that he loved. And so I, you know, I was like, Oh, I like that.

And I got it tattooed on my arm on a total whim. I was living in Austin. I absolutely hated it. I was having a really difficult time there, and I just woke up one day, it was like, it is what it is, and I went and got tattooed on my arm. But I think it also ties in really well with dog behavior, because it is what it like. The thing speaks for itself, once you kind of know how to decipher different things, get out of the human perspective of what canine behavior is, and actually look at the behavior itself, yeah? Because, like, they don't really do things, you know, for funsies, they do things for function. So, yeah. So it that's kind of a, I guess, the story beginning to now of why that phrase means a lot to me. Like to just kind of step back and look at, look at what's in front of you and and work with that information.

And yeah, the the only people who have ever asked me, or like, known what the tattoo was our lawyers, because it's also like a law term. Anyone else is like, what is that? What does that mean? But like, I'd be on the train with my arm, you know, holding one of the bars or whatever, and a lawyer would keep it, and they'd be like, Whoa. You have that on your own. I always knew if it was a lawyer, because they would know what it what it meant.

But, yeah, yes, ooh. I don't want to say how many years I've had it, because it's been a while, but it's still relevant. It's still relevant.

[37:05] Colleen: I think it's fascinating when people have words tattooed on their body, like I don't have any tattoos, so, you know, but, but when it's words, because I'm I guess I'm a word nerd. I'm so interested in words that there are so many words in the world, and these are the ones that you're holding, I think that's really cool. I think it's, I agree, cool and Latin. Who knew?

[37:35] Kelly: Yeah, it was my most spontaneous, least thought out tattoo ever, and I think it's still my favorite so, so Hunter S Thompson had a huge influence on you. How old were you when you first encountered his writing? Do you know?

[37:57] Kelly: 19? Yeah, a boyfriend, a boyfriend of mine gave me some of his books. And I was like, Whoa, this is incredible. Like, it's so, so weird and random and like, you know, yeah. I was like, Oh, I could do this. This sounds, I mean, it was, don't know how far I want to go into his lifestyle. It's also interesting to me how few people know of him, or have heard of him. And I'm like, well, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, you know, they did a movie in the 90s.

And even then, people are like, nope. And I'm like, Oh, well, you should read hell, okay, Hell's Angels. That was his first book. He went and, like, became friends with the Hells Angels back in the 60s, and rode around with them. And like, kind of became, like he was writing a book about them, but he kind of became part of them. And that's, that's what the gonzo journalism is. It's literary nonfiction. You're inserting yourself into the story, and yeah, then they beat the hell out of him, and he wrote a book. So I was like, Oh, that's interesting. That's not like, boring, tapping away in a cabin in the woods somewhere, kind of writer that's like, living life and writing about it, kind of stuff.

[39:21] Kelly: Yep, I was into for people who dive right in, thank you. I gotta connect with it. Yeah, awesome.

Contact Information and Closing [39:26-40:29]

[39:26] Colleen: Thanks. Okay, so if people wanted to learn more about you and your work, how could they do that?

[39:36] Kelly: My website is www, dot Gonzo dog training.com or you can just shoot me an email at Kelly, K, E, L, L, i e at Gonzo dog training.com and then my Instagram, which I'm trying to get back on to I took a big step back from social media, so I'm not as consistent on there anymore, but that's also Gonzo dog training. So those are the best places to find me.

[40:00] Colleen: Awesome. Thanks. I'll link. I will link up to all of those in the show notes. Cool. It's been so fun being philosophical with you today. Kelly, I always love this kind of talk, so I really appreciate it. I never know where we go, but it's always fun for me to take the journey. So thanks for wandering around with me today.

[40:26] Kelly: Thank you.