158. Patricia McConnell, PhD, CAAB 

[0:01] Colleen: Welcome back to Unleashed at Work and Home. I am so excited today. My guest today is Dr. Patricia McConnell, who I'm sure you know of, but in case you don't, she's an animal behaviorist and the author of The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of a Dog, The Education of Will. But she also has a new mystery out which I got to read, called Away to Me, and I promise not to give away any spoilers in this conversation, but I do want to say right up front that no dog dies in the making of this novel. So welcome, Trisha, I'm so happy to have you here today.

[0:34] Patricia McConnell: Thank you so much. What a joy to be here. I'm just really happy to be here, Colleen, thank you for having me.

[0:39] Colleen: I'm thrilled to have you. And so I did just say that no dog dies in the making of this novel, and that is really important. So why don't we just start right there? Why is that so important for those of us dog lovers to know that right off the bat?

[0:55] Patricia McConnell: It's a great question. I've been thinking about that a lot. Away to Me is a murder mystery — people die, and murder mysteries are incredibly popular. My theory is that dogs get us coming and going. They are both individuals who are relatively helpless — they don't have thumbs, they can't open the door, they can communicate but they can't speak English. So they're relatively helpless, and they engender all of that very hard-wired nurturing. If that nurturing instinct wasn't there, we'd be extinct as a species — anybody who's ever been around a two-year-old kid knows that. But on the flip side, dogs also give us what psychologists call non-judgmental, positive regard. They love us no matter how much we've screwed up. I actually think there is a canine side-eye in some individual breeds, but in general, dogs are ridiculously forgiving. They treat us like the parents that we all want but nobody can have, because your parents actually have to raise you. So they're both infants and parents — they play a role no other individual plays in our life, and that's why the idea of a dog dying is so hard for us. I actually had to talk down my editor, who was wonderful and made the book better. She said, 'You can't tell them — you're going to ruin the plot.' And I said, 'Oh no, I have to tell them, because I wouldn't read the book, and everybody I know in the dog world wouldn't read the book.' So: no dog dies in the making of this novel. There is drama — the dogs are basically characters in the book — but no dog dies.

[3:28] Colleen: No dog dies in the making of this novel. So I think it is so cool that your trajectory has moved you toward writing fiction now, but I want to go way back, because it is so interesting to me. When you were ten, what did Trisha think she was going to be when she grew up?

[3:52] Patricia McConnell: Oh, I love that question. When I was somewhere around eight or nine, when I was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up — growing up in Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona — I said, I want to marry a rancher. Think about that. This was 1955 or 1956. It never occurred to me that I could have a career based on animals. What I wanted was to live with animals, and the only way in the world I lived in that you could possibly do that was to marry a rancher. Ask a ten-year-old girl now who wants to work with animals if her answer is that she wants to marry a rancher — I don't think so. So it says a lot about how much our world has changed. There's a lot that's not right about gender roles right now, but that's one of the pieces of progress that's just really gratifying.

[5:17] Colleen: It is really gratifying. Okay, so I have a bazillion questions about your book, but I would love a bullet-point journey from ten-year-old Trisha, who thought she was going to marry a rancher, to becoming an animal behaviorist and now this. Can you give us the bullet points of how you got from there to here?

[5:42] Patricia McConnell: So really quickly — I went to the University of Colorado at Boulder for one semester. I had to drop out because I had the worst case of mononucleosis ever recorded in the history of Arizona, according to my doctor. I was really sick. Then a year later I met Doug McConnell, my first practice husband, and got married very young. We moved, I think, twelve times in eight years. I did everything from being a cashier at a bookstore, to working in a daycare center, to ending up working with troubled adolescents in Alaska, which I absolutely loved. We separated. I came back to Wisconsin, where I had been happiest. I worked as a sort of executive assistant at a nonprofit for alcohol and other drug abuse. I was running an entire conference — a really big deal — and also going to speak at it about women and alcoholism, because at that point nobody talked about women alcoholics. Then my boss interrupted me: 'We need somebody to take notes in a meeting.' So I'm at this big conference table. People are introducing themselves. The man on my right introduces himself, and I'm about to say I'm Patricia McConnell, and the man to my left introduces himself as if I wasn't there. I didn't exist. I didn't matter. It hit me really hard. I remember going back to my apartment and crying for an entire weekend. I was basically doing a lot of typing and also doing a lot of really important content work, but not getting paid or credit for it. So I decided to go back to school and study animal behavior — because that's always what I wanted to do. I ended up going back full-time to the University of Wisconsin. I got a PhD in zoology with a minor in psychology, specializing in animal behavior. Then a friend from the university — Nancy Reefer — and I started Dog's Best Friend doing consulting work as applied animal behaviorists. Nancy eventually left because her daughter wanted a horse and she needed a job that paid more money. I started Dog's Best Friend as just doing consults, but so many of our consults were related to people who had been in very harsh, punishment-oriented classes — what was happening at that time in Madison. So we started doing puppy classes, then family dog training classes, and that business grew and grew. I started giving talks and doing seminars, then I started writing books and doing a radio show — and then here I am.

[9:43] Colleen: And then here we are — like, obviously anyone would have predicted that looking at you at ten years old.

[9:51] Patricia McConnell: You know, it's a good reminder to everybody that you just don't know. Yeah, you just don't know.

[10:02] Colleen: You are such a fabulous storyteller — thank you. My next question is about storytelling, but I just remembered I wanted to mention how people could find your fabulous new book. So could you tell us about Away to Me? First, tell us about the name — what a cool name — and then tell us where we can get this book.

[10:39] Patricia McConnell: I love that you asked about the title, because I am really fond of it. On one level, 'Away to me' is the cue given from a handler to tell a dog to run counterclockwise around the sheep. But the reason I love it so much — well, two reasons. One is it fits with my hope, dream, fantasy of a trilogy: the next book, which I've already started, has 'Come by' — which goes clockwise around the sheep — and then of course the last book is going to be 'That'll do.' But there's another reason I love that title and used it very intentionally. It's also a metaphor for the protagonist, Maddie McGowan. Maddie is an animal behaviorist — write what you know, right — and Maddie has issues. She has some stuff. She's a human; we all have stuff. Maddie pushes people away but really wants them to come to her. So 'Away to me' — it's that conflict that so many of us have, that push-pull. That's the other reason I settled on that title.

[12:35] Colleen: The title resonated with me too — not specifically about Maddie, but about all of us. We almost have to go away to discover ourselves. Not physically away necessarily, but we have to make this foray into the world in some way to discover the certainty and steadiness of the inner self. So often we're trying to be who everyone wants us to be, but the only real, true contentment is when you find who you are.

[13:33] Patricia McConnell: Do you want to go on book tour with me? Because that was lovely. That was beautifully, beautifully said and such an important point.

[14:04] Patricia McConnell: If you go to my website — which is shockingly PatriciaMcConnell.com, two C's, two N's, two L's — you can easily see where you can order the book. It officially releases on February 24, but people can pre-order it right now and it will be shipped starting on that date.

[15:15] Colleen: Perfect, and I will link that all up in the show notes. I did see one blurb that had such a lovely description — I believe it was Sy Montgomery — who described it as 'All Creatures Great and Small meets Agatha Christie.' For a person who likes mysteries and likes animals, what a combo.

[15:49] Patricia McConnell: What a combo. That is such a perfect blurb. My publishing company, Kensington, has been wonderful to me, taking a chance on a first-time fiction writer. I mean, fiction is a whole other thing. There's just a fire hose of it coming out, not just every day but every hour. So they were wonderful to support that.

[16:52] Colleen: Let's go back to storytelling, which we've already seen throughout the conversation we've had so far. You are such a gifted storyteller — you tell stories where we all get sucked in and we can see what's going on and feel what's going on. That's always been one of your gifts, and it's a beautiful asset in nonfiction. Now you've turned it to fiction. What was that like for you — to say, 'I've been telling stories forever, but now I'm making them up'?

[17:55] Patricia McConnell: That's so gracious of you, it means a lot. I love stories too. We are, as humans — I mean, what defines us as much as language is stories. As soon as there was language, there were stories. Writing those short little scenes for my nonfiction books was always the most fun for me. I ended up writing Away to Me because I was stopping seeing clients — I'm in my late 60s and early 70s, and I just didn't feel competent enough anymore to do a really, really good job of working with so many aggressive dogs. But I didn't want to completely retire, and I love to read, and I love that part of writing. So I thought, I'm just going to learn to write fiction. It turns out fiction is so hard to write well. It is easy to write bad fiction. It is really hard to write good fiction. There's so much involved — character development, dialog, pacing, plot. I mean, who has to write a plot when you're writing a one-page scene to describe animal behavior? It took me over five years. I did stop during the worst of the pandemic — I was too overwhelmed with trying to stay alive, basically. But it's incredibly fun to write fiction in part because you have this joy of: I can make anything up, anything can happen. And that means at every sentence you're having to make decisions. I love the craft of writing. Something I can do as an older person is write, and even if my memory isn't what it used to be — I'm 77 — with writing you can just go back, you can Google things. So it's well suited to my stage of life. My hope is that I will get to the third book in the trilogy. I've already written about four chapters of Come By and have a loose plot. So I'm very excited about that.

[22:07] Colleen: Standard advice for writers is often 'write what you know.' Our character Maddie lives on a farm in Wisconsin and she's an animal behaviorist. When we're reading about Maddie and her farm and her town and her colleagues and her experience at sheepdog trials — are we getting a sneak peek into your life?

[22:36] Patricia McConnell: Very fair question. I took the 'write what you know' really seriously, because I was learning how to be a fiction writer, and it's a real skill. When you read fiction, it looks so easy, but the number of drafts, the number of new chapters thrown out, the number of plot changes, the number of times you go through every single page and edit and edit and edit — I literally was like, 'Write what you know.' That part made it easier. So the farm is a small farm in Wisconsin, Maddie has sheep, she goes to sheepdog trials, she has a Border Collie, she has a Great Pyrenees guard dog — all of those things are things I've experienced. But Maddie is not me. Maddie is short and a little pudgy and has gorgeous hair. She eats McDonald's and pizza. But she's like so many of us in the dog world — she's good with people, she's a good animal behaviorist, she's good with her clients, but she is so reliant on her connection to nature and to the dogs that she loves. I think so many of us who love dogs — whether you're a PhD animal behaviorist or a vet tech or a shelter worker or a dog walker — you know: would I risk my life to save my dogs? I want to say yes. And Maddie does. I also wanted the setting to be almost a character in its own right. Some of the comments that made my heart sing were people saying they just really loved the descriptions of the land and the farm and Wisconsin. Because I worked really, really hard to try and make it its own character.

[29:01] Colleen: I also noticed that Maddie has a dog Clementine who 'sleeps 23 hours a day and is occasionally mistaken for a stuffed animal.' And another character has a small dog named Tilly who 'had been George's lap dog, a little one he could spoil all he wanted and never worry about mud or sheep shit in his sheets.' So — is it common for families on farms to have dogs with jobs and dogs who don't have a specific role other than companion?

[29:50] Patricia McConnell: It is relatively common in the sheepdog world. And it's very common in the horse world too. When you ask people about their little dogs, they say the same thing — a pug, a Corgi, a terrier. For many people in the sheepdog world, being great at it means having five, seven, twelve dogs and competing a lot. You're humans in a sport which is competitive. You can never let your dog do something that would get them 'too sticky' at a trial. Now this morning, I laid Skip down in front of the sheep, went and got the hay — he was in heaven, and I didn't have to worry about it at all. I think that's part of why people love having a little dog: it's one they can spoil, and they travel easily. Terriers are famous for being around stables.

[33:15] Colleen: It is interesting how there are so many different roles that dogs have in this world and so many different ways of being with a dog for humans. Throughout the book, there's a lot of information about dog behavior and about education — important things to know, or noticing this, or understanding that — along with your philosophy about training and relationship. How important was it to you to have that in there? Because there's nothing preachy about it; it's sprinkled throughout in just little tiny moments.

[34:12] Patricia McConnell: It was very important, but not intentional in the way one might think. My intention was to write a great story, a fiction book. Years ago I had mentioned to my agent that I wanted to write something like an American version of All Creatures Great and Small, but with a woman behaviorist instead of a male vet. She said she didn't think that would sell that well. I sort of forgot about it, and then I realized I actually did that — I just turned it into a murder mystery. My intention was always to create believable characters and believable dialog and to advance the plot and have the reader totally engaged. But Maddie McGowan is an animal behaviorist, so she has a life. I found myself halfway through, two-thirds of the way through, running into something I'd written to advance the plot and going, 'Wait — Maddie would never do that. I would never do that.' So her professional ethics just kept coming in naturally. One of the things I've since learned about fiction is that one of the reasons people enjoy it is that it introduces you to a whole other world. My hope is that this book reaches not just the dog community but mystery lovers too — people who are not dog lovers have read it and also really enjoyed it. And hopefully they do learn about, you know, why a dog who's growling at you in a corner is not trying to exert dominance. People learn a lot more through enjoying a story.

[38:00] Colleen: And Maddie is not just rolling in the dough either — I know she's working very hard.

[38:11] Patricia McConnell: Very intentionally. I needed to convey the reality of someone who's an animal behaviorist. She has a farm because she got money from her divorce, and she gets by just fine with her behavior clientele and raising sheep — but she doesn't have a lot of money. You don't make a lot of money from being a dog trainer. A behaviorist can make a living if you're lucky, smart, and good, but you're not going to get rich.

[39:01] Colleen: I ask all of my guests to share some words that have meaning for them, and the words you shared feel so appropriate to this conversation. You shared a line from the Mary Oliver poem — and I want to make sure I get it right, because this line does get a little bit misquoted from time to time. So the Mary Oliver line is: 'Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?' Tell me what this means to you.

[39:32] Patricia McConnell: It should be well known, because it's such a reminder. I'm easily seduced into 'well, when X happens, then I'll be Y — I'll be happier, I'll be healthier.' I also do some meditation, and one of the things that is so prominent in meditation is right here, right now. That is what our human brains pull us away from all the time. How much of the time do we spend thinking about the past, thinking about the future? Right now, I'm sitting in my study, I can see these beautiful woods outside, I'm looking at your beautiful face, doing this wonderful thing — talking to this amazing woman who's done wonderful things in her life. Right here, right now. This is my one wild and precious life. I think we need to be reminded of that, not every day, but every five minutes. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. And I love that Mary Oliver isn't just saying 'life is fleeting, savor it' — I love the 'wild and precious.' Doesn't that feel liberating and freeing? Wild and precious — if you really want to do something, maybe you should just do it. That's sort of what I did with this book. I never knew it would be published at all. I was extremely gratified when it was.

[41:39] Colleen: So you wrote it — it was coming out of you regardless.

[41:43] Patricia McConnell: Oh yes. I literally started writing it for fun. I set up a wonderful partnership with a brilliant writer, Kat Warren, who wrote What the Dog Knows — that fabulous memoir about training a human-remains detection dog. She decided she also wanted to start writing fiction. We have been working on our fiction books together for years. We meet every month, I send her some stuff, she sends me some stuff — we're readers, we're critiques, we're editors, we're helpers, we're cheerleaders. We both started like, 'Well, this could be fun,' and I'm so glad I did. I'm really, really glad I did.

[42:39] Colleen: Yeah, it is so wonderful to have somebody to bounce ideas off of and to share things with. It helps when you stumble and think, 'Oh, it's too big, it's too hard, it's too whatever,' to just know that there's somebody who thinks you can, and who is happy you're trying, happy that you're present and living into what your desire is. And the words you shared — I thought they resonated so deeply with the words you have at the end of your book: 'But they trusted themselves to try, and maybe, just maybe, that's enough.' That's kind of what you just said here, isn't it?

[43:31] Patricia McConnell: Yeah, it's exactly that. That's all we can do. It's so easy to worry about success, worry about whether you're going to be good enough, make a fool of yourself. But if you never try — having the courage and the sense of self to say, 'Well, I've always wanted to' — you name it, be a stand-up comedian, be a dog trainer. I'm sure this happens to you all the time: people come up to you and say, 'Oh, I've always wanted to do what you do.' And I've never never never — it's like, well, you're not dead yet. People say, 'I'm 45, is it too late?' I'm 77 and I just started writing fiction. Of course not. No. And maybe, just maybe, trying is enough.

[44:39] Colleen: Well, when we think about the whole wild and precious life, we're not actually able to save it for that rainy day or that time when it's all right or something. So trying is the only way you can have that wild and precious life. And it's such an uncomfortable catch-22 at times. I certainly spent decades feeling like I wasn't good enough, and sort of inhibiting myself from trying things until I was ready, until I knew more, until I figured out this or got that certification.

[45:18] Patricia McConnell: Colleen, I'm sure people would love to know — how did you make the plunge? What got you into this field?

[45:35] Colleen: Well, there are actually two plunges that are probably relevant. The first is I was always the person who loved dogs and took classes with my dogs, and my sister worked for the local park authority, and they posted that they were looking for a dog trainer. This is way back when you wrote a letter — I wrote a letter saying, 'Wow, how does someone become a dog trainer?' I was just asking how. And they hired me. So that sense of 'I don't know enough to be the teacher' — I had one book, the Koehler method, that's what I had. Oh, it was way back. But that knowledge that I loved dogs so much, and I had this opportunity — there was no one who could point me toward education at that time. So it was a book and an opportunity. I was like, okay. And that fed me for so long, but the idea that I didn't know what I needed to know was both an impetus to learn, which was awesome, and a feeling of insecurity and not-enoughness that I could never quite fill. And then later in my career, I hit a burnout, compassion fatigue experience, and I went into studying psychology and all sorts of things that were really just interesting to me. And so my career started going. And you probably don't remember this, but you were one of the first guests on my podcast way back when I thought it wasn't going to be for pet professionals — because I saw you at a conference and I was like, 'I'm starting a podcast, and it's going to be for business using some dog stuff for people themes,' because I was afraid to serve pet pros. I knew how much pain was in the community. So for a number of years I served others. But my heart drew me right back. Over the course of some years, my passion is just supporting pet professionals to try. I don't care what it is they want to try. I just know that they want to try, and if I can help them — so that's it. In both cases, it was this 'oh, I'd really love to,' and then that whole feeling of 'well, maybe, maybe, maybe just maybe it will be enough.'

[48:11] Patricia McConnell: Maybe just maybe. You know, I think so many of us — and I should include men too, it's not fair to leave them out — but I think so many of us live with this belief that we're not enough. And that's where 'just try' is so important. Well, you're just a wonderful role model and example, and I've followed your career and I'm just so impressed with the work you've done. It's such a joy to see these smart, committed people adding so much to the world of dog behavior and dog training.

[48:53] Colleen: Thank you. I'm going to try to accept that graciously, because there's a whole part of me that's like —

[49:00] Patricia McConnell: Just breathe.

[49:05] Colleen: Oh, it's so fun talking with you. I don't want to run on and on and take your whole day. So — could you please tell us again about the book? What's it called? Where can we find it?

[49:19] Patricia McConnell: I wrote a mystery novel called Away to Me. You can go to my website, PatriciaMcConnell.com, and learn more about it, pre-order it — and I'll be doing a book tour in Wisconsin and Texas. I'm thrilled about Texas because my beloved late sister's husband and dear friends live in San Antonio, so I'll be starting the book tour there and going on to Houston. I would love it if people who come to an event would say 'I was listening to Unleashed, I was listening to Colleen.' I love hearing from people who've been listening to people like us.

[50:16] Colleen: So awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure to talk with you.

[50:23] Patricia McConnell: We obviously had nothing to talk about, and I know it was a struggle, but we managed.

[50:29] Colleen: We did. We tried.